Dialogue 5 | Believer Vs Non-Believer

RV: The Truth is for believers for non-believers it’s an idea until proven otherwise.
The Universe is just the result of big bang and billions years of subsequent cooling/evolution. God didn’t create man he evolved from apes. So is it satisfying to your intellect to believe that someone did that for you and not question its validity? That someone who controls your thought process? And that if it was created by someone in this time fabric, he may have created similar/better ones in other dimensions of space; aren’t you curious about that? Aren’t you curious about how your life is not just decided by believers but also non-believers who you think are also controlled by god? And not think about the fact that every good thing is dedicated to god and self-blame or blame the evil for bad effects?
All our rishis were philosophers; they did not finish the work, they left a lot of open ended questions. When you come to a dead end you don’t stop and say – ok god put it here and maybe he wanted me to stop doing things and doesn’t want me to proceed instead you find another way to get out.
If there is no world and only god, what would you say about all the dictators and rapists?
Wait, do you mean to say that the term god is subjective and can be construed the way we want it to.

VR: Phew! That was a big list…but good thoughts. Honestly, I admit that I do not have answers to all your questions. However, I do have questions to your answers. Before I list them out, there’s a question that you need to answer – Who is asking all these questions? Is it RV? Then please explain to me who you are? Because RV is just your name. You existed even before this name was given to you.
My analogy as per my understandings of whatever little I’ve learnt from the scriptures…
For me, the Cause and Effect Theory (in Philosophy it’s called Karma Theory) makes sense which says:
1. For every Cause, there is an Effect
2. If the Cause is removed from the Effect, nothing remains
3. An Effect is nothing but the Cause itself but in another form
4. An Effect is concurrent and inherent in the Cause
e.g. for 1: There are many examples but I can think of one immediate example…This message I’m typing is the Effect of your message to me – the Cause
e.g. for 2: The Cause for a mud pot is Mud. The Effect is the Pot. If we remove Mud from the Pot, nothing remains
e.g. for 3: A Seed grows into a Plant. Plant is nothing but seed grown into a different form
e.g. for 4: Smokers usually have the smokers’ cough. The Cough is Concurrent in smoking. Smoking can cause cancer. Cancer is Inherent in smoking.
Science talks about Objective Science…about the world we perceive, about the planets, about our body & mind and how it works, etc. Spirituality is a subjective science which talks about the Subject who does all this enquiries. The Rishis were Subjective scientists who were interested in studying the subject. Their discoveries in Objective sciences were only byproducts in their path of enquiry of the subject. They started their enquiry with the questions – Who am I? Who is asking these questions? Is it the mind? Is it the intellect? If it be so, then did I have this same intellect when I was born? No. So the intellect kept developing. It kept changing just like the mind and the body. It is just like the world we see, it changes. For every changing thing, there has to be a changeless substratum that holds it. A clocks needle cannot move and show time correctly if there’s no pin under it that remains motionless and stands as substratum. If a train has to move, the tracks have to be stationery. If we analyse in this way, we can see that there’s a changeless substratum that remains still so that the changes can take place.

What is the changeless substratum in me which is seeing all these changes in the world, in my body, in my mind, in my intellect and in my ego? All these things are changing but ‘I’ the Experiencer is not changing. ‘I’ can remember some incidents that happened to me when I was three years old, when my body, my mind, my intellect & my ego were different. The enquiry starts with this – I.
When was I born? When was the exact moment when I came into existence? Or when did I exactly come to this planet? – the logic we get is as below:
Since Karma Theory holds true, I analyse using the same. If I’m the Effect, there must be some Cause to me. I cannot come from nowhere. So, I existed in my mother’s womb before I was born and before that I existed in my parents’ bodies. From where did I come to my parents’ bodies? From the food that they ate. So I existed in the food. From where did I come into the food? From the water it took in, from the soil and from the air. So this ‘I’ must have been present in all of them in different forms before I finally took this form. If I go on analyzing like this, the chain becomes endless. There’s no end to this Cause and Effect. For every Effect, there has to be a Cause. But what resulted in the first Cause? The first Cause should then be the Ultimate Cause, the Changeless Substratum, which supports all the other changes caused by Cause & Effect. It is that Changeless Substratum that is called God.


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